Future of TrueSkill + PR/VI

You didn't give it much of chance. I can't see how you'd know what all VI has to offer based on the short time you were on, but to each her own. Feel free to come back anytime, I promise I'll be gentle

 

Perhaps PR players really dislike the idea of having to come on a server without all their precious advantages (like upgrades) in order to determine their TrueSkill. The fact is, if I put this on PR, the only people increasing in skill would be a team full of high levels. The problem with that is that high level is experience (time) based, and has nothing to do with skill, which is an unfair advantage in a mod that calculates time-independent skill.

 

Agreed, mathematically, testing TrueSkill in PR would give very inaccurate results, not to mention the awesome scrambles we get at the beginning of each round, which would make it even worse.
Seriously, to all of you, PR players, you should definitely give VI a try, even if you think it is boring at first, I did, and I honestly don't regret it, it's an awesome server, with awesome people and you'll probably testify something you usually don't in PR servers, teamwork...

 

ive played vi before.... i played vi and when it first came out, it was aight, the pr came out and i fell in love, maybe true skill is really good idea for vi, but we have so many upgrades buffs and enhancements in pr that its pointless to have the trueskill system. ill contuine to play my pr and you guys can just keep me updated on how your true skills are turining out,... idk maybe ill play again but im really not use to vi.

 

I have played VI, but I earned my rank playing VS, and anyone who says VI is harder -- or "a man's game," insinuating that VS is somehow lesser -- is grossly misinformed. I chose to play VS over VI because, to me, VS is more like playing L4D modded, and that is what I wanted. I was bored with regular L4D and was looking for something different. I sure found it! Man, I used to get clobbered all OVER the place... but I kept coming back, because all the higher-levels were really pissing me off, people like Smokke and TJ and Atreyu and Yoyo, and I knew they were not better players than me, they just had all those neat little VS perks! So, I went about learning the VS system, which was not an easy task, as hardly any high-levels were helpful, and the wiki page was like a leaflet; but learn I did, and in a short while I was starting to give as good as I was getting. It sure is funny how people who used to talk sh!t to me while they beat me up became some of my friends when I started serving it back to them!
Here is my point: I did not need TrueSkill or anything else to show I could play this game. Anyone who is capable will not NEED TrueSkill, as his/her true skills are simply enhanced, if they are any good, on VS. Yes, I play VI sometimes and even play HV on the L4D1 server, but my preference is VS, mainly because I love playing as SI. So you can do whatever you want with this TrueSkill thing, it will not affect me -- I have already proven MY skills.

 

It will not make a difference to people that don't understand why trueskill must be determined in VI. Levels that you have accumulated in pr right now is experience, not skill. Until boasting about skill, I suggest you prove it first, because level and skill are not the same thing. The new pr upgrades I'm adding will involve trueskill, so if you want any of those, then you'll have to play on vi for now. This has to do with the limitations of mathematical statistics, not with pr or vi in general.

I'm a huge pr player myself, lvl 120 atm, but I love vi as well. I'm sure if you give vi a chance, it'll pay off when those upgrades and skills come soon.

 

I'm lvl 120 in PR, and I know VI is harder. Consider who is "grossly" misinformed about Vi first.

Glad you found PR entertaining! VI is VS just like PR, so idk what you mean by this.

That's all nice to hear, but what you have shown is experience, not skill. You dominate over the other players because you stuck to the servers long enough to have attained upgrades and skills that enable you to do so Think about it like this: if I were to take away all your abilities except for crawling, self revive, and teammate revive, how well would you play in an evenly matched game of versus? That's where skill is shown rather than advantages/upgrades that you have gained through time. Remember, skill is something that is innate-- I could connect and become a TrueSkill of 50 in just a few games if I was really good, or if I was a noob, I would be stuck at 10-30 the whole time. Experience is something that is gained through time, and even if I was really good, it would take me a long time to level up. Skill and experience are related but not the same.

So here's the main idea of this topic:

- Yes, most PR players hate VI, and yes, most PR players are reluctant to even try it out because there are no upgrades or skills.
- I'm lvl 120 in PR, and I love VI. People aren't giving it a chance.
- If you think you could beat a really skillful L4D2 player who has attained a TrueSkill of 50 that has killstreaks, magic, backpack items, and epic new upgrades and skills, and think you can beat him with just your high level alone, you're wrong.

Here's the finale:

I'll be adding new upgrades and skills to PR, and they will use TrueSkill. I'm not going to force anybody to try out those upgrades and skills, but if you want them, you'll rank up fair and square in the VI servers without any unfair time-based advantages. Why do I say "unfair time-based advantages?" After all, you have earned those upgrades/skills fair and square right? Yeah. However, those factors have to do with how long you played on the servers and NOT with your innate L4D2 skill. Mathematically, it's unfair, and thus, for accurate skill measurement, people will need to play on VI.

That is all. I'm not downgrading anybody here-- MMJ and captain, I've played with you two in PR once, and goodness, you two are really good! I got owned lol. However, that doesn't prove that you're better skilled than me until you can prove it in a server where everybody has the same upgrades/skills/enhancements/buffs etc. When the match is fair and you win, then yeah, you're better. But using high-connection-time-related upgrades on a PR noob like me doesn't prove you're better at the game-- it just proves that you've played longer on the servers.

Skill is innate, and doesn't depend on how long you're connected to the servers like experience does, but instead it's all about how good you really are at the game.

 

maybe we have to break it down for them slowly luke:

On PR, u have more upgrades as you level up. The more u play, the higher your level. The higher your level, the more upgrades. (u with me so far?) The more upgrades you have, the better your performance (for most players). This means that if I am level 210, I'll probably do better on vs than a level 120. Now if trueskill is determined on PR, obviously I will end up with higher level because my current upgrades give me an advantage over someone with less upgrades. This is where VI comes in the picture.. On VI, everyone is equal as far as "upgrades" are concerned. I could be a new VI player and have the same capabilities (not skill, capabilities) as someone like Vulcan or Bonekeep. This means that just because they played VI longer doesn't mean I can't perform as well as them. Therefore, trueskill is best calculated on VI because it is the fairest way. There are no unfair advantages because of more time spent on the server like there are on PR. Personally, I enjoy both of the servers but VI was always too empty so I mainly played on PR. Anyway, I hope this explanation was thorough enough.

 

tj i understand this completely... this is why choose to play pr.

 

I understood the Trueskill algorythm as simple, yet very complex..How much does playing time factor into the TS rating? Will 10 mediocre finished campaigns be better than 2 really good ones?

EDIT: will it be used for teambalancing also?

 

MMJ, I understand your viewpoint. If there's such opposition to the idea of making skill detection simple and fair, then I might as well work on modifying Microsoft's algorithm to make it reasonably acceptable on PR. I'll just have to have two separate databases, one for PR, and one for VI so the two don't get mixed.

However, in the meanwhile, will you bear with me and give VI a chance? Last night you played for 5 minutes and then left.

 

It doesn't. No where in the algorithm do you see any variable called t, or time. Playing time does not matter It's looking at skill, not experience. I do not understand your second question...

 

I think you answered my second question.

Will it be used for teambalancing also?

 

There already is TrueSkill balancing It's on manual right now.

FYI, any admin that wants to balance teams by skill, use !tsbalance

 

Awww...MissMaryJane come play with us this Fri and Sat night. Bonekeep and I will protect you!

 

Nah, there's just too much opposition. I'll add a PR version for trueskill-- just for ya MMJ and Captain

However, that will be later. Here's my todo list:
1. Make sure TS is working fine in VI.
2. Add new TS-based upgrades/skills to PR.
3. Add new level-based upgrades/skills to PR (for those of you that aren't skillful enough to get a TS of 50).

 

Reading about trueskill from the link you provided there is alot of information that says playing time does effect your rating. The longer you play the less your skill will change. The first few matches it will jump around, then as you play more your skill will be more consistent and changing your rating will be slower. That is what I am understanding so far..

 

I admit I was skeptical at first but I have noticed a big increase in VI the last couple days. Not only that but so far I like them all, none of the riff raff I expected, none of the drama, everyone is very well behaved and just trying to do their best in an unfamiliar enviorment without Superman abilities. The guys are doing great adapting. I think Bonekeep would agree we just need the PR chicks now, even the cunty ones Just kidding, but yes we want to show you such a good time you stay over here.

 

@Beasty

OH, if that's what you meant by playing time, then yes, the mod will take around 30-50 maps to judge your trueskill. However, playing time (as in round completion time, kills, deaths, etc.) does NOT matter. Take a look at this old thread for more information:

http://mgftw.com/showthread.php/6703-Vicious-Infected-Versus-TrueSkill-Experiment-Poll


Edit:
Ahm okay, should I just leave TrueSkill with VI then, and keep PR from ever getting TrueSkill? You guys won't be able to get any killstreaks, magic, backpack items, etc. I talked with some people who play PR, and they were all for TrueSkill-- they wanted something new. Several of you conservatives out there are all against it. Let me know.

 

Sorry about derailing the thread for a few posts there.

I think TS should be introduced into the PR system. It will give another dimension of gameplay to enjoy, and that is what we are all here for right?