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Future of TrueSkill + PR/VI

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by szSteam_76561198051919925, Apr 2, 2012.

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  1. After 3 days of heavy bug fixing and development, TrueSkill is finally complete. People seem to like the skill-determining features on VI (it adds a new twist to the gameplay without interfering with good ol' VI gameplay), so I'll leave it installed on there for now.

    I looked at the activity charts for VI, and HLStats shows that VI is rarely full (just look at the monthly activity chart). VI is a great mod, and it expands on L4D2 the way it's meant to be played.

    So, here's my idea to increase VI activity without adding anything new:


    • Allow TrueSkill to be calculated in VI only. TrueSkill needs highly competitive servers, and VI is a great server for that.
    • TrueSkill will be used globally in both PR and VI. PR will have a lot of new upgrades and skills that use TrueSkill (I just have to import them from PRev). However, to increase TrueSkill, players must play on VI without any of their PR-related upgrades or skills (just hard-core VI features). It'll allow the mod to determine skill much more efficiently + boost VI player counts.

    Basically, TrueSkill will be measured/determined in VI only, but your skill value will be used globally in PR for some of the new upgrades.

    Thus, this idea will drive players to play on VI (where trueskill can be determined much more accurately), and then benefit from their VI gameplay in PR. In effect, not only is skill determined more accurately, but player count increases in VI as well.

    Any thoughts on this?
     
  2. HighVolt@ge

    HighVolt@ge Senior Member

    lol, fresh meat! Come play with the big boys bitches!! :D
     
  3. szSteam_76561198049914430

    szSteam_76561198049914430 Last Online: 39 hrs, 42 mins ago


    YEAHHH FINALLY THANK TO THE GODS. Post whenever you put it , so i can stop playing tf2 :P (pr have been quite boring these days)
     
  4. Bonekeep

    Bonekeep Guest

    +1 to Luke... I gotta admit, this is the best idea to increase the numbers in VI in a long time.
     
  5. Zsoka

    Zsoka Senior Member

    Indeed [​IMG]
     
  6. Nova

    Nova Senior Member

    If I got it right, PR players will need to go on VI to get their TS skill? Not everyone enjoys VI and it sounds a abit clich
     
  7. Bonekeep

    Bonekeep Guest

     
  8. Nova

    Nova Senior Member

    No, not necessarily. VI is a mod, perhaps, but it's got it's elite community behind it for example how most of the VI players call it a "man's server". All you guys see is the technical aspect of the game. People may want to have a good game of versus without the PR skills and upgrades, but it doesn't mean the people on VI are to the player's liking either. An example valid for most is CS: lots of people love the game, but the community is so shite now that nobody bothers to play it anymore.

    PR and VI are both different game styles in L4D2, both have their communities, their good players, the bad ones, the strategies to win based on the mod. It was the same with mixed mods and berserker. Forcing PR players onto the VI server just so they can get their PRev skills doesn't make any sense at all, and that's not what I call "PR players wanting to come play VI".
    I know PR players have always been welcome and there's nothing wrong with them discovering or rediscovering VI, but this won't be the case Bonekeep. They'll have to come over to get their skills, in a mod completely different to the PR they know, the mod you say is made for men.

    Out of respect for Vulcan, he's the guy who makes the most sense when it comes to mixing mods which is what is going to happen here. There won't be any explicit technical conflict since the VI mod isn't changing, but you'll be taking in the veteran and new PR players; en masse, who have nothing to do with VI for the most part and would only ever go on to get their TrueSkill measured and go up.

    I also agree that we're all here looking for fun, but what fun is there when you don't have the liberty of choosing what mod you want to play on ? I'll keep saying it over and over again : making TrueSkill be measured only on VI is a bad idea bearing the fact that it ultimately ONLY affects the PR servers with the new additions, which is a completely different L4D2 mod. As logical as it may seem on the technical side to make sure players meet a challenge to increase their TrueSkill, I think not giving them the choice to measure their TrueSkill on the involved servers even more illogical and it isn't the way to go, again, IMHO. Perhaps different constants to make it so that VI offers more interesting variations for TrueSkill than in PR, to help get more activity on VI, but not completely force players to head onto VI if they want the new skills.

    Besides, wouldn't the VI constants for TrueSkill make it harder for PRVS players to rank high with their TrueSkill?
     
  9. Zsoka

    Zsoka Senior Member

    Nova you do have some valid points and it is a concern, but the way I see it Luke is mostly trying to get them on VI for TrueSkill so they can learn teamwork which is so rare on PR VS and sometimes even Coop.
     
  10. The_Jackal

    The_Jackal New Member

    HI!
    I particularly think that VI is a mod with static modifications, you can evolve, making it into something drab and boring time. I started me in MG on servers VI, I stopped doing so because many times I was kicked server by my high ping, despite playing very well. However PR is evolving, changing, you need to double efforts to move towards well-defined goals, their effort is rewarding with the time and quality of the game which makes it more exciting. It is an exciting RPG like WOW. I respect the players of VI, but they are very different mods. And I agree that all modifications to improve the servers have to be welcome!.
     
  11. Vulcan

    Vulcan Game Server Moderator

    I think this warrants another non pr server. While VI is seldom full there are times when it is full and the regulars should be able to get a spot without being crowded out by PR players trying to level up their trueskill so they can go back to PR with new abilities. While I welcome players from any server all the players in VI seem to get along while PR seems to be full of drama and bickering and I don't want to import that aspect of the PR community. I would like to see Berserker come back to ensure we have a little buffer room. Over the years I have gotten used to empty servers 1v1 2v2 3v3 ect... While I prefer 10v10 low player games are just like a different game, you have to adjust your strategy and play like a bot staying with the group instead of running amuck. As infected the bots pick you off easily and quickly but they dont throw mollies or deploy fire bullets. I look forwards to new players and fuller servers and hope we can continue to all get along.
     
  12. HighVolt@ge

    HighVolt@ge Senior Member

    I've played alot of VI, seen alot of people get kicked for alot of things.... I've never seen anyone get votekicked for a high ping... :smiley-signs127:
    Perhaps you kept trying to use !cp or !buy on VI [​IMG]
     
  13. Bonekeep

    Bonekeep Guest

    He may have been autokicked by the system. At some point if your ping is high enough, it'll kick in and boot you.

    As far as Nova is concerned, I don't really care. I don't see how anyone could give a flying fuck enough to argue the point, so do whatever you want. It so much easier to just try something and then see if it works and if not then make a change, than to sit around and argue over opinions and assumptions. As far as I'm concerned, any drop off in VI or PR or any other mod is due to the natural life cycle of the game. Unless L4D3 comes out here soon, it doesn't matter how you mod the game, there's gonna continue to be a decline. If that means that VI dies because it just doesn't have enough players to justify the cost, then I move on.

    If PR players wanna come play, then feel free to come on your own accord... just know that you're gonna get your ass handed to you if you don't use good teamplay. VI can be frustrating as hell but for me it's now more about spending time with friends and goofing around than it is about trying to prove I'm better than anyone else (which I am). :.refusestousesmiley.:
     
  14. What VI players get from TrueSkill: Show off their shining 50; a symbol of expertise, magnificent skill, and veteran teamwork.

    What PR players get from TrueSkill: Epic new upgrades and skills; e.g. another PRev skill coming to PR: anyone with a TrueSkill of 50 will be able to use the Skill called "Life Jacket", which lets players swim in deep water for 15 seconds (and then drown if they don't make it back to shore on time). After coming back to shore, they glow blue, alerting SI nearby and common infected to their doused scent. (There are 10-14 skills based on TrueSkill that I plan to import from PRev.)

    TrueSkill cannot be measured in PR. Consider level 100+'s. They have skills and upgrades that lower levels do not have, giving them an advantage in gameplay. Those skills and upgrades are based on connection time (experience points) rather than actual player skill, so those advantages are unfair and thus inhibit the ability to measure true skill. This is why skill must be indirectly determined on a mod like VI. Experience-based factors must not undermine the mod's ability to accurately determine real skill.

    Many people think that they just have to get their 50 in VI once and then say goodbye to it forever; wrong! Having to resort on TrueSkill-based skills and upgrades in PR will lower your mean rating, thereby lowering your TrueSkill. You'll have to keep up your real skill in hard-core VI in order to continue using those awesome upgrades in PR. Why am I implementing such a "stupid" rule? TrueSkill must be impacted in some way in order to be used, so I figured I'd impact the skill system so that people continue to play on both mods.
    VI is an excellent mod, and it deserves more players. It is truly a "man's server," with respect to the actual design of the game. When I play on PR, I feel no worry; I'm playing to level up. When I play on VI, I don't have any of my speed-boosting and damage-boosting upgrades, and thus I must rely on my own ability and jurisdiction, and work together as a team to survive. It's a real L4D2 server per say.

    So, I've made up my mind. If you want to prove your skill, come play on VI :) You won't regret your time in VI because it'll pay off when you go back to playing in PR for a while.

    After reading this post, many people will probably stop looking forward to TrueSkill in PR, but if you want the following new abilities in PR, you will play in VI:

    - Killstreaks (care package, UAV, sentry gun, and chopper gunner) --> TrueSkill 30 or higher.
    - Magic (yay Skyrim) - Players with the "Magic" skill will see a second bar on the screen, enabling them to cast spells like Flamethrower, Lightning, or Sonic Blast (for now) and forge upgraded swords etc. Magic decreases after using a spell, but it will regenerate automatically. Both Survivors and Infected will be able to use Magic. (TrueSkill 45 or higher)
    - The skills I mentioned in the other TrueSkill thread, like Vehicle (survivor skill), Bounty Drain (infected), Gargantuan (Infected skill), Life Jacket (prev. mentioned), and many others I have to import.
    - Backpack items - store extra PRev supplies in your backpack, like Super Pills (gives 150 temp HP) and Jetpack (fly around shooting infected until fuel runs out-- can be countered by infected because you die if they manage to force you to the ground), and some others. (TrueSkill 50)
    - Gifting system (TrueSkill 40 or higher) - Gift points to your teammates.
    - That's it for now, but many things are planned that involve trueskill.

    If you want all that, then guess what, you're playing on VI :P If you have any objections to this, state a good reason why, and I'll rebuttle. While it's true that TrueSkill is being determined on one mod (VI) and used in another (PR), my rebuttle is TrueSkill can't be measured accurately in PR.
     
  15. marvel

    marvel Head Administrator Staff Member

    Mixed feelings here, I think the overall idea sounds great but I agree with some of Nova's concerns as well. Not everybody likes VI, it's empty a lot of times for a reason and I don't know if forcing people to VI to upgrade their skills in PR seems like a really good idea to do. If a game is good it will get full eventually anyway. In fact I think it's more full already since trueskill is running on it.

    Other than that, a lot of players wouldn't understand that they have to go to VI to upgrade some of their skills. There would be so many questions from confused players. Don't forget that most players are not on this forum and don't read all this. They don't want to leave their game and give up their slot to go get some upgrades on VI. Some players play for 8 hours+ in a row.

    Another thing is the purpose of VI, it's there kinda as a 'cool off' server, just play, kill a lot of zombies without having to think about anything like bounty, points etc. I'm not sure if we should mix that up with PR, PR and VI are two very different games with both their regular players, putting PR regulars on that server together with VI regulars might lead to unwanted side effects.

    It might be like putting 10 Samsung -and 10 Apple fanboys in the same room.
     
  16. The Real Youngblood

    The Real Youngblood Game Server Moderator

    Somebody's scared!!! :) jk

    Marvel...just let it happen. If it doesn't work out then easy enough to switch it back. The worst that can happen is that everyone might have a good time playing along side MG regulars that they have only heard about. Please, let us play together Big Daddy! We'd be glad to show the PR players on how to play. I promise we won't bite.....hard.

    Seriously, if this happens then I STRONGLY encourage everyone to read the VI strategy guide on the Wiki. Please, please, don't come on the VI server and not know how to crawl or use a medkit. I don't think my blood pressure could take it. :)
     
  17. Bonekeep

    Bonekeep Guest

    I can't comment about how this all will affect PR players, but I can see how that might cause confusion. But, can that really be more confusing that trying to figure out all that PR stuff?

    Anyways, that all aside, I just wanted to say that we've seen more PR players in VI of late (even before all this Trueskill stuff) and its been all good. It may take a few rounds for PR exclusive players to get their bearings, but it does make for better games overall. There's no fanboyism that I see.
     
  18. TrueSkill won't be "true skill" in PR. There are just too many unfair advantages that make mathematical predictions much more uncertain. Players need to be ranked in VI, which is why I think we should give it a go.

    With TrueSkill coming, there will be the following menu additions in PR:
    Code:
    1. Enhancements
            A. TrueSkill
                1. Upgrades
                       a.) Survivors
                       b.) Infected
                2. Skills
                3. Killstreaks
                4. Magic
                       a.) Choose Spell (hold RIGHT MOUSE to cast)
                       b.) Discard Spell
                5. TrueSkill Ranked Mode
                     - Opens up a menu with a description on how TrueSkill is ranked,
                       what it is, and why they need to go to VI. Menu options:
                              1.) Go to TrueSkill Ranked Server
                                      - Pressing 1 here will open up a network connect
                                        dialog (Press F1 to connect to 173.234.56.43:27015)
                              2.) Back
    
    If players get too confused, it's not the end of the world. We can always start measuring TrueSkill in PR, but the base constants and Microsoft's algorithm will need to be modified drastically or we will have just awful mathematical results. I played with a lot of people today (full server) in VI, and people really love TrueSkill. After a request to write a short guide on what TrueSkill is, I wrote this:

    http://mgftw.com/wiki/index.php/TrueSkill_Guide

    I don't know the MG wiki password so if someone could email that to me, it would be helpful. I created a new account as "Luke" to write that introduction.
     
  19. MissMaryJane

    MissMaryJane Banned

    Theres no need to be like come play with the "men"... some people just dont like vi, id like to see the future of true skill bundled into vi and pr, not use it to try to increase server ratings.. I dont like vi and prob will continue to not play even if it does nothing to my true skill score.
     
  20. MMJ played VI for a while and she really disliked it. Idk, maybe some people just hate VI for what it is. However, we had a lot of people playing today and it was a lot of fun! I would say 99% of the people loved VI with TrueSkill from what I have seen today.
     
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