Exploit or good use?

Discussion in 'General discussion' started by Yong Zhun, Dec 21, 2017.

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Exploit or Good Use?

  1. Exploit

  2. Good Use

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Yong Zhun

    Yong Zhun New Member

    Helm's Deep
    A scenario that we can actually do it everyday.
    Someone love the juicy exp from Helm's Deep.

    Someone love the challenge for defeating so much tank.
    However, there is some elephant in the room that we should face and talk about it.
    From some previous threat which is
    https://mgftw.com/threads/make-play...-while-in-progress-or-report-back-state.6745/
    We can know that some player are abusing the quest system and doing the same quest many time to earn reward in many time.
    But, this have been fixed by admin, and player are unable to cancel a quest when it is in reporting state.
    There is no doubt at all it is a wrong thing and player should not spamming a completed quest to gain more reward.

    If you are observant, you can find that, actually you can still cancel the quest "before" joining others Helm's Deep .
    And this is what's that we should talk about.
    Is canceling the quest before joining others Helm's Deep consider an exploit? or It should be a good use?

    For my opinion, this is an useful trick that can let us enjoy the thrills from playing Helm's Deep.
    And I think this is not consider as an exploit since you are "not" gaining the reward from quest .
    The previous issue is player can abuse it by hosting a scenario that he had already host once and gain again a again of the reward.
    But for this situation , it is different, we are not hosting a scenario that we had already hosted and we are not gaining more and more reward from the quest system.

    With the conclusion, I think canceling the quest before joining others Helm's Deep isn't consider an exploit but it is a kind of good use.

    What do you think? Do you think it is an exploit? Or a kind of good use?

    At the last please pardon for my bad English . :(
     
  2. Horama

    Horama MG Donor

    It'a exploit , i understand helm deep is cool , i played on in 2011 during long period ( one time 10 hours in a row ) and more exciting than regular coop by the challenge ( yeah i lost 4 of my 5 last ticket , depending hours you start the team haven't the same level i see that with experience )
    I'm sure Honorcode will imprement new scenario ( May be some other scenario with clan scenario ) depending if we let ( and he have ) time to add that .
    I can say also if you become bored by regular coop and only search scenario , may be it's time to change your mind with other game and return full restored after a break ( count for those waiting the next update ) , like for a good game , let time to developed .
     
  3. doomie_22

    doomie_22 Junior Member

    Canceling your Helms Deep quest means you could arrange it over and over until you run out of tickets; that is exploiting the system bud. Sure you aren't gaining the reward from the actual quest but you are gaining the experience from killing all the tanks during the scenario. Why even make such a thread about it?
     
  4. Yong Zhun

    Yong Zhun New Member

    I don't see it is exploit in any way.
    I define exploit is using a bug or something that make you have benefit and unfair to other player.
    As this situation, I didn't see any unfair to other player.

    And actually this sounds more unfair to other
    lets take a look
    A player that had host a Helm's Deep, he/she can still join others Helm's Deep.
    Another player join others Helm's Deep, he/she can't host a Helm's Deep anymore at that day.

    I mean like, if admin decide to let player only join once Helm's Deep per day,
    Should have a restrict that player can only join once per day. (like kicking out the player whom played once today when the scenario start)

    but what the truth is, a player that joined a Helm's Deep can actually joined another Helm's Deep.
    Which I can see that , canceling quest before joining others Helm's Deep should not consider as an exploit.

    Another Idea for me is make Helm's Deep can be hosted even with no quest.
    This can actually solve the issue in a more directly way.
    If hosting a Helm's Deep without quest is technically impossible ,
    then make a new another quest that can let player host Helm's Deep,
    but the quest will give no reward,
    and the only function is to let player can host Helm's Deep many time in a day.(of cause he/she must have a ticket to done this)
     
  5. doomie_22

    doomie_22 Junior Member

    You can join Helms Deep as many times as you want per day; you can only arrange it once per day thus reaping the quest reward only once per day...

    What is your end game here with your idea? Letting players participate in Helms Deep once per day or an unlimited amount of times?
     
  6. Yong Zhun

    Yong Zhun New Member

    I afraid you have misunderstood what I mean,
    As what I said will not make you able to "arrange it over and over until you run out of tickets".
    It is just only you can host a Helm's Deep by using your ticket, even though you had joined others Helm's Deep which is host by other player.

    If you consider this is exploit just because of we can still gain the exp from killing all the tanks during the scenario. I think this is sounds hilarious,since you can still join others Helm's Deep after you complete your quest, which is mean you can still actually "gaining the exp from killing all the tanks during the scenario" without this trick. Do you mean this consider as exploit too ?
     
  7. Yong Zhun

    Yong Zhun New Member

    My purpose is to let a player able to host a Helm's Deep after joining others Helm's Deep which is host by other player, you just seems like get my word wrong.
     
  8. doomie_22

    doomie_22 Junior Member

    English doesn't seem to be your first language so I don't understand what your end game is with this thread.

    Here's how Helms Deep goes:
    -You can host Helms Deep as long as you have the daily quest and a ticket.
    -When you have completed the quest you can participate in Helms Deep as many times as you want given that someone else arranges the scenario.

    What part of this do you want changed?
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  9. Yong Zhun

    Yong Zhun New Member

    Let clear your mind for what you have read at above.
    Now with a simple example


    Player A just help his friend to complete Helm's Deep in the morning.
    Player A didn't cancel the quest before helping his friend.
    Player A get a ticket on the evening.
    Player A are now unable to host a Helm's Deep even he have a ticket , since he had complete the quest in the morning.


    Player B just help his friend to complete Helm's Deep in the morning.
    Player B do cancel the quest before helping his friend.
    Player B get a ticket on the evening.
    Player B are now able to host a Helm's Deep and have fun with his friend , since he haven't complete the quest in the morning.

    You see the different now ? With this simple example, I don't see canceling a quest before joining others Helm's Deep which is host by other player and make you able to host a Helm's Deep your own is consider as exploit.
     
  10. doomie_22

    doomie_22 Junior Member

    What you are suggesting seems essentially what I said and how it current goes: -When "you" have completed the quest you can participate in Helms Deep as many times as you want given that "someone else" arranges the scenario.

    "you" would be Player A.
    "someone else" would be Player B.

    I've participated in Helms Deep were the scenario was completed successfully more than once in a given day due to in-part of other players who didn't participate earlier but still needed to complete their daily quest and they had a ticket. Plus if a Helms Deep scenario was failed, you or anyone else can can arrange it over and over given that the requirements have been met to start a scenario.
     
  11. Yong Zhun

    Yong Zhun New Member

    Sorry for my bad English , hope I have not misunderstood what your mean.
    From your word, what I understand is you are saying that
    with current PR version , player are able to join Helms Deep that arranges by other player even they have completed their quest.

    If what I understand are correct , I afraid you still didn't get what I mean.

    How it work now is a player are not able to arrange the scenario in that day anymore if he/she had joined the Helms Deep arranges by other people and didn't cancel his quest before he join the Helms Deep.

    And by canceling the quest before joining the Helms Deep arranges by other people, the player can arranges another Helms Deep .

    Which I mean that I see canceling the quest before joining isn't consider as exploit/

    Hope you can understand what I mean.
     
  12. Yong Zhun

    Yong Zhun New Member

    None of the part I wan to change,
    and for you to know, I'm not suggesting an feature , but is asking an action should consider as exploit or good use. Which is mean this action can be done in current PR Version but seems seldom known by other player.

    Let make another example
    Player A arrange a Helms Deep scenario.
    Player B and C participate.
    Player C cancel his Helms Deep Quest before the Helms Deep start.
    They won.
    Player A & B have complete the quest.
    Player C have not complete the quest.(Since he had cancel the quest)
    No doubt at all, Player A should not able to arrange a Helms Deep again.
    Player B are unable to arrange a Helms Deep at the day, since he have completed the quest.
    Player C can still arrange a Helms Deep because he have not complete the quest.(Since he had cancel the quest)

    Again to let you know, I'm not suggesting a feature but asking an action should consider as exploit or good use.
    And the question is
    Is the action of Player C (Which is canceling a quest before the scenario and make you able to arrange one your own) consider exploiting or should be a good use?

    Hope you can understand now, my English just too bad...
     
  13. doomie_22

    doomie_22 Junior Member

    "Player D", "Player E", "Player F", etc can start a new scenario without any involvement from "Player A", "Player B", or "Player C".

    Discussion over.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  14. Casderai-Dest

    Casderai-Dest Junior Member

    Or Player B leave the scenario before SIT die so the quest cannot be done. This is an exploit I already think over but I don't really dare to try.
     
  15. Fated 0ne

    Fated 0ne Junior Member

    It's an exploit, period.
    They are called "Daily" quests for a reason.

    "I define exploit is using a bug or something that make you have benefit and unfair to other player."
    Consider the case where someone has not completed their HD quest because the scenario server is full. You would be taking up a slot with no intention of finished the quest while they have missed out, hence "unfair to the other player" who wants to finish it.

    "And I think this is not consider as an exploit since you are "not" gaining the reward from quest ."
    You're taking advantage of the PR system for personal gain which is also defined as an exploit. You would not gain rewards from the quest obviously because you have cancelled it, but you still gain the rewards from killing the high tier tanks in the HD scenario.

    It's not a matter of who can host, it's a matter of who has the quest too and would like to help complete it.
     
  16. timkit

    timkit MG Donor

    It's time I gave my point. btw this will be my only post.

    After this post, there will be no need for any more unnecessary forum drama here as it is from the early posts.

    It's an exploit.

    I'll give you 3 scenarios. 1 of them isn't an exploit because it is the normal way to be doing it. 2nd one is an exploit however the 3rd one is really an exploit and something that MUST BE AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS, NO MATTER THE PLAYER, FULL STOP.

    Scenario 1 (Helms Deep Scenario, Day 1)
    Player 1 has a quest and ticket and is able to arrange a scenario
    Player 2 has a quest but no ticket and cannot arrange a scenario
    So what happens before?
    Player 1 did not cancel their quest because he had ticket that he wanted to use.
    Player 2 did not cancel their quest.
    Result at the end of scenario if its a win?
    Player 1 quest is completed and player 1 cannot organize another scenario for that day until the next day.
    Player 2 quest is completed and player 2 cannot organize another scenario for that day until the next day. This even applies if he managed to get 1 helms deep ticket during the scenario that he was in.
    Is it an exploit?
    The answer is no. As long as the players are able to do a scenario do not cancel their quest, they cannot organize another one. But, that does not stop them from joining perhaps up to 3 more other player scenarios who do have their quest and ticket and who also do not cancel theirs. The only way to organize your scenario would be to not join any players helms deep scenario.

    Scenario 2 (Same Scenario, Day 2)
    Player 1 has a quest and ticket and is able to arrange a scenario
    Player 2 has a quest but no ticket and cannot arrange a scenario
    So what happens before?
    Player 1 did not cancel their quest because he had ticket that he wanted to use.
    Player 2 did cancel their quest.
    Result at the end of scenario if its a win?
    Player 1 quest is completed and player 1 cannot organize another scenario for that day until the next day.
    Player 2 quest did not complete because he does not have it active. If he managed to get 1 helms deep ticket during this scenario then made his quest active again, he is then allowed to organize his scenario for today. If he then organizes it, succeeds in completing it. Then his quest is completed for today and even if he has another helms deep ticket, he cannot organize another scenario for that day until the next day.
    Is it an exploit?
    The answer is yes. You cannot try to defy the system by being able to organize more than 1 helms deep scenario in 1 day yourself, that is not allowed. It is also essentially farming the tanks for experience/cash/FR-Pills and other items which cannot be allowed under the mgftw rule of farming in this case. The only way you can organize a helms deep scenario again yourself in the same day as an exception is if you did fail your scenario and or crashed from the scenario server (due to unavoidable circumstances that legitimately caused it, such as a connection problem to the server), as long as you don't deliberately fail it and you manage to get it cleared the second time around, there should not be any problems.

    Scenario 3 (Same Scenario, Day 3)
    Player 1 has a quest and ticket and is able to arrange a scenario
    So what happens before?
    Player 1 did not cancel their quest because he had ticket that he wanted to use.
    So what happens during?
    Player 1 ends up leaving the scenario server before the scenario is completed (when they know the SIT is going to be killed, clearing the scenario). However since the server detected that player 1 left, he loses his helms deep ticket since he/she was the one to organize the scenario. If he however does have another helms deep ticket which was gained either during the scenario or during past scenarios before the 1st scenario then he is able to continue to arrange as many scenarios as he wants for that day.
    Is it an exploit?
    The answer is yes. If player 1 is seen holding a large number of scenarios for a good amount of time during that day and is caught doing so by any admin or moderator (who can see it either in-game or from discord itself), it is considered to be an exploit. It is because you are able to farm the tanks for experience/cash/FR-Pills and other items (and it isn't just you doing it, whoever participates in your scenarios is also caught doing it too). This can lead to the admin or moderator either warning/kicking/banning said player who organised the scenarios in that specific day or across a number of days for breaking the mgftw rules in regards to farming.

    To fix the problem and ensure that it NEVER, EVER HAPPENS EVER AGAIN in the history of mgftw, this is what I am going to suggest
    - Make sure that players are unable to cancel their daily/scenario quests while it is in progress on any PR server, including the scenario server itself.
    - Have a system in place to detect that if a player does leave the server while in the middle of their scenario, then attempts to later on hold another scenario within the same day, deny them that chance and block them from holding another scenario until the next day. This should only apply if the system also detects that said player's scenario actually did win. However if that doesn't work it will also be included to include scenarios that were also lost.

    End of the post. I think this post should clearly be agreed with 100%, no doubt about it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2017
  17. Yong Zhun

    Yong Zhun New Member

    In this case, I understand that canceling the quest while processing is consider as an exploit and sure not be played by the player.

    Hence, I would like to bring out another bug which is can consider as an exploit too.

    The Dormant Tank
    Player can actually cancel the Dormant Tank quest
    Which is mean player are able to reset and reset for fighting Dormant Tank
    As far as the player didn't defeat the last Dormant(Which is Brutal Tank)
    He/She are able to cancel the quest and do it again. (Unless the player defeat the Brutal Tank)
     
  18. :x

    :x MG Donor

    This!! That!! This!! That!! enough. Your guys not seeing real problem here. When you see a Tier 2 or Tier 3 they forget about the player who need help and they only focus on shooting tank and hoping for a torn. Is this how it suppose to work, abandoning a player in need and get a torn to start a scenario.

    Not blaming anyone but I have seen so many times. Oh come on why won't you help a incap player next to you just because you in berserk mode or you about to reach a very high damage.

    **Please implement helping attributes to the function that drop torn to specific random player group or simply remove the player from getting torn for abandoning player . There is a reason why server is marked as coop.
     
  19. raz

    raz Head Administrator Staff Member

    I haven't read all the replies in this thread, quite simply didn't have time to, but:

    It's an exploit all day long.
    All players should be able to do daily quests ONCE and ONCE only per day.

    You know the clue is in the title "Daily Quest"
     

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